tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4638070692185897379.post2538744970416515677..comments2010-04-14T22:48:36.172-07:00Comments on Beyond science versus religion: IN A MERE THREE LIFFETIMESDerek Bickertonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16164347930159384876noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4638070692185897379.post-9000485808133866452009-10-20T11:08:53.559-07:002009-10-20T11:08:53.559-07:00I'm sorry, but you said that "for the maj...I'm sorry, but you said that "for the majority of people, any upside was overridden by the down". I'm pointing out that far more people actually get little benefits like, say, living without the threat of imminent death these days.<br /><br />The fact that so few people lobby - or volunteer - to live in pre-1800s societies indicates that people actually <i>do</i> seem to see more upsides than downsides in modernity. The Amish grow from within their population, for example, but don't exactly score a lot of recruits.Ray Ingleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290483120987779339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4638070692185897379.post-66923296978502494622009-10-19T13:58:07.842-07:002009-10-19T13:58:07.842-07:00Ray, you said:
"Leaving aside material wealt...Ray, you said:<br /><br />"Leaving aside material wealth for the moment, that's just not true. As Steven Pinker points out, violence, both individual and state-sponsored, has been in a long-term downward trend, and has reached all-time lows in the modern age."<br /><br />Seriously, you think I didn't know that? What do you think I meant when I said, "Remember that you comfortably inhabit a paradox equally bizarre, in which a far higher value is placed on human life, but the human individual is reduced to a meaningless cipher."<br /><br />My whole point: yes, modernity PROTECTS human life, but treats humans like commodities. Commodities have value, too, but the value isn't to themselves--it's to their owners.Derek Bickertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16164347930159384876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4638070692185897379.post-37658829914143876242009-10-19T11:21:25.748-07:002009-10-19T11:21:25.748-07:00So you had the paradoxical situation that human li...<i>So you had the paradoxical situation that human life was cheap, cheaper by far than it is today, yet at the same time the individual, the soul-bearer, with that drop of immortality in his or her chest, was more highly valued, mattered more.</i><br /><br />Um, your life was only <i>really</i> "highly valued" if you were a member of the upper social classes. If you were a peasant... well, you could <i>hope</i> for God's help, I guess, and as you note, apparently a lot of people did. But ask a slave or a serf - or the half of humanity that wasn't male - how much "value" they got out of that "drop of immortality".Ray Ingleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290483120987779339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4638070692185897379.post-4077574470615540072009-10-19T10:29:07.474-07:002009-10-19T10:29:07.474-07:00Speaking of material wealth now - it's definit...Speaking of material wealth now - it's definitely true that people - at least once basic needs have been taken care of, at least - tend to notice disparities a lot more than their absolute prosperity. And that's a definite challenge to social stability in the future.<br /><br />But I have to ask something: can you give me some examples of places "where there was neither slavery nor serfdom" "[p]rior to 1800"? How many can you name?Ray Ingleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290483120987779339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4638070692185897379.post-38978747651962266262009-10-19T09:45:41.728-07:002009-10-19T09:45:41.728-07:00Well...For the majority of people, any upside was ...<i>Well...For the majority of people, any upside was overridden by the down.</i><br /><br />Leaving aside material wealth for the moment, that's just not true. As Steven Pinker points out, violence, both individual and state-sponsored, has been in a long-term downward trend, and has reached all-time lows in the modern age. Yes, really. Read this essay:<br /><br />www.edge.org/3rd_culture/pinker07/pinker07_index.html<br /><br />Along with things like the vast reductions in infant mortality alluded to above, these are very important positive changes that a "C19" denizen would notice.Ray Ingleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290483120987779339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4638070692185897379.post-45121474136172170482009-10-19T09:38:55.662-07:002009-10-19T09:38:55.662-07:00Wikipedia lists the death dates of 60 people born ...<i>Wikipedia lists the death dates of 60 people born in 1800. More than half--36--lived into their seventies. Of these, another half--18--lived into their eighties. Six of these made it to their nineties, and one (Hiram Cronk, who else?) made his century.</i><br /><br />Of course... all of those 60 people were historically notable, which means they were far more likely to be wealthy and have leisure time for historically-notable pursuits.<br /><br />It's true that a huge chunk of the improvement in life expectancy is the drastic reduction in infant mortality (and let's not neglect <i>that</i> when we're discussing "PROGRESS") but quite a bit comes down to man more people living longer, too.Ray Ingleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290483120987779339noreply@blogger.com